Four Auctions

The state of prices can, perhaps, be discerned from four auctions that recently completed on eBay. Rather than link them (because they’ll go away in short order, and broken links suck), the details are listed here:
Order of Alexander Nevsky: $1,227.99
Serial Number 18248, good condition, missing enamel on one star arm.

Order of the Patriotic War, 1st Class: $535.00
Serial Number 168678, excellent condition

Order of Mother Hero: $180.49
Serial Number 374409, excellent condition

Order of the October Revolution: $305.99
Defaced serial number, otherwise excellent condition

Note that these were sold by Collect Russia, a well known and respected dealer. His prices are usually very high; what you’re buying is certainty, as he doesn’t deal in fakes. The site has recently dealt with many very high end pieces ($50,000+) that are in the “Red Bible”, the Comprehensive Guide to Orders and Medals. He has a presence on eBay, and it’s a good place to check out the state of US market. He tends to offer flawed pieces there, not flawed in the sense of fake, but damaged pieces. It’s a good strategy – setting a high price on a damaged piece is risky, and letting the market sort out the value via an auction gets it sold as well as giving the ‘pulse’ of the market overall.

A year ago the Nevsky could have easily sold for $2,500.00, even damaged. The OPW 1st class for $1,000, the Mother Hero star for $250.00, and the October Revolution for $500.00 (though that’s debatable given the defaced s/n). Prices out of these auctions show a 30% to 60% decline from that time.

I think that’s an accurate reflection of the market – prices have fallen in tandem with broader markets, equities, real estate, etc. Revealing of the “fad” component of the hobby is that precious metal prices have remained high; it’s not any change in commodity prices that has affected the price of medals.

In a deflationary market cash is king. That’s what we’re seeing now – deflation. Whether it’s time to buy is up to you, but if you care about what your medals will be worth down the road then it’s time to hold on to your cash. The bottom, ala the early 90s in Russia when people were desperate to sell, hasn’t been reached yet. And unlike other investments there’s little inherent in Soviet medals that makes their long term outlook positive.

Auction Fun, Final Chapter

Received the OPW II I won at the auction last month. Mixed emotions. It’s in beautiful shape; enamel is close to pristine, with only surface scratches, and most of those only visible under my 10x glass. It’s in the T2 V1.7 range according to Filer, but appears to have a straight mintmark, rather than curved up or down. As well, it appears more as a concave reverse rather than a starback, though I’ve seen other starbacks where the star was so faint as to be almost indistinguishable from a concave. It looks more like a T2 V1.8.4., including the single “ray” on the obverse under the sabre handle, though it’s well out of the s/n range for that type according to Filer. Same mint (KMD), chonologically the next production run, and the s/n (166.566) is at the very high end of the range of the earlier type, so it makes sense that it may be an exception to his range. There is massive variation in mint marks and s/n on OPWs, with almost as many exceptions as there are rules around them. There’s no evidence of tampering with the serial number or rivets, the patena is good and consistent.

The citation is good, to a Rifle Battalion commander for operations in July through September 1944 in crossing the Dniester and advancing to the Prut River with the 5th Shock Army. It seems to be a “good job as an officer” award more than anything. He was originally recommended for a Red Banner. That was down-graded to a Red Star, then he was finally awarded the OPW II. The s/n falls right in the range it should, both for time (summer 1944) and location (3rd Ukrainian Front). Overall both the award and the citation appear authentic.

The bad news – there’s no Award Card or other documentation, only the citation. Consequently there is no way to be certain that this OPW II is actually the award given for the citation. Sure, it looks like it should be, given the dates in Echos of War. But ”
looks like” and a four bucks will get you a cup of coffee. This really pisses me off, not least because I should have noticed the lack in the listing! Though it said “copies” from the archives, it ends with “Include citation and ist English translation.” Other listings say “Include, a… b… c…” It doesn’t really mean “includes”, rather “consists of”, as in “all that’s here”! Bad spelling and grammar aside, foolish me to not notice the boilerplate for what it is and figure out what is really meant.

To top it off, shipping and handling was US$25.00. It was packed well, if in used packaging, but shipping and insurance came to well under US$10.00. Another thing not made clear up front, that the price would be padded with an inflated “handling” charge.

Anyway, live and learn. The OPW II itself is great, so I can’t say I’m completely distraught. The citation is cool as well, and I don’t doubt that it’s *believed* to belong with that OPW. Truly mixed feelings here. Don’t think auctions over the net are my thing. Just as I’ll never buy another set of “abridged” research, don’t think I’ll be doing any more bidding where I can’t see, in toto, what’s for sale.

I won?

Received an invoice in the mail today from Baldwins for the OPW II I bid on at the auction. As posted earlier I heard it go “to the room” so thought I’d lost out. Who knew? Apparently there’s no “to the mail” call. At any rate it’ll be good to get it and read the citation.

I did ask how I came to win, what exactly transpired. Did my bid come in first, and so supercede an in the room bid? Or was it just a case of confusion on the part of the auctioneer about where the bid came from. We’ll see what they say.

The Auction

My lots should be up within an hour. Wonder how late it’ll go? There’s a bit of internet bidding going on, but the vast majority of sales are “to the room” meaning to someone sitting there. It’s after 9.30PM now on site. I wonder what the etiquette is for these things re: letting people go home. They are cranking through the lots though! So maybe it won’t be an issue. I mean, if I’m dropping a few hundred large who’s to say what my bed time is?

Haven’t heard any “to the mail” bids. Wonder if my emailed bids will be “room” or “internet?” Or if indeed there is another, unheard by me so far, type that’ll be called out. “To the order.” What does it mean? Is it what he calls when the minimum bid is the only bid? Of is it the mail in bids?

Many things are not selling, but it’s impossible for me to get a feel for “how it’s going.” Too fast, not experienced enough. There are some items that appear to get into bidding wars – something Imperial that started at a thousand ended up selling for $15,000. The stats after will tell, though you can see the hammer price instantly on the interface here. Cool beans.

Lot 2257 is the first of the Soviet orders. It’s lot 2128 right now at 6:57 PM. Let’s see how fast they really are; I’ll post the time that lot 2257 goes up.

111604: an internet ID number overheard. Since I’m number 111755 I’d say there are at least 151 people logged on.

Lot 2257 kicked off at 7:30 PM.

My two lots are 2311 and 2317, bidding $160 and $110 respectively.

Who is number 209? That number bought every single Lenin that sold. And a good number of the Red Banners. And the $62,500 group. And the $130,000 Kutuzov. And the $80,000 whatever it is… And the Nahkimov. And the group for $8.000 And the Cavalier group for $50k. And on and on… interesting that a single bidder buys so much stuff no matter the price. I’ve quit tracking what he’s bought, but he pretty much monopolized the Soviet stuff, including the prizes towards the end.

Most of the Soviet stuff is selling. I think more so than the Imperial.

The group didn’t sell at $1,600.00.

2311: $160.00 to the room! #1
2317: $200.00 to the room! #1

So I didn’t get either item, losing one to someone there and just being outbid on the other. Oh well. It’s not like similar items won’t be sold, oh… next year.

Auction Tech

So, I’m not a neophyte. Hell, programming was my career for twenty years. The net is not intimidating. Yet I’ve never taken advantage of a “live auction” over the net. Well, as I blog this I’m listening to The New York auction, by Baldwins. Not registered to bid; I sent my bids in as I said yesterday. But man, what a trip it is to listen!

They’re towards the end of the Russian coins. The bidding goes quickly – not odd for a lot to last for under 10 seconds before it’s “passed” (no one bids) or sold. Some last longer, but no time is wasted. Ah, just finished the coins. “We’ll take a break until ten minutes after nine.” and the sound is cut off.

I’m going to go eat, then come back and listen to more!

Auction…

Well, I did it. Bid in my first auction, on an OPW II probably given for action in East Prussia, and an OG III during the attack over the Oder. Didn’t go for the group; at the end of the day the minimum bid was just too expensive. I’ve read of people making offers after an auction closes on lots that don’t sell, and may do that if it doesn’t sell. I don’t think it will. With the price of high end items dropping like stones middling groups to quartermasters probably aren’t seen as a good investment.

Spoke with Mr. Markov today by phone. Seemed nice enough, very busy with people viewing the lots. I called to find out more about the research, but he had no time. Just as well.

And now nothing to do but wait.

Auction Fun Continues

I received a response from Dmitry, two photos and a note. The photo of the reverse of the orders is not up to his normal standard, but I doubt any shenanigans. What can be seen of each order corresponds with the types they should be according to the excellent www.soviet-screwbacks.com site. The order book looks good as well, and most importantly shows serial numbers. They aren’t anywhere near the numbers listed on the auction site! As Dmitry said in his note “It just all wrong.” I must say that, overall, the catalog is not impressive; pictures don’t match descriptions, some entries obviously wrong. Wonder how it will affect the auction? There’s no errata yet, and the auction is only days away, so I wonder if it’ll go forward with bad data online? Seems like it could open up a smelly can of worms if a bidder wants to contest something.

Ah well. At any rate the choice is now mine. A $1,600.00 minimum bid seems excessive. With the 12% hammer fee ($192.00) and shipping and insurance I’d be looking at a minimum of $1,850.00. Breaking it down by piece:

OPW II  $150
OPW II  $150
RS $175
RS $100

Capture of Budapest $80
Capture of Vienna $90
Liberation of Prague $60
Victory over Germany $25
Victory over Japan $30
WWII issue Guards badge $40
3 jubilee medals $25
25th Anniversary of Victory in WWII $15
2 Mongolian badges $25
(All the above have docs, factored into the price.)

The fact it’s a group: $300

Totals to $1,265.00

This undervalues most of the awards by 20%-30% compared to prices only 6 months ago. Perhaps a mistake, but I don’t see prices rising, they’re falling. I also may be undervaluing the group premium, in fact probably am. But there’s a difference between the market saying it’s a big deal and me saying it. I love groups like this – they’re what I collect. Ahh, I’ve also not included the research. Hmmm… that’s easily another $200, probably more with translation assuming all four citations were returned. Since none appear to be long service awards, and they all fall in the s/n ranges to be wartime awards, it could be a very interesting series of citations. Adding that in brings the group to about $1,500.00 total. Hmmmmm…

So, another note to Dmitry asking what’s in the research, though I doubt he’ll respond before Friday. We’ll see.

I have looked at four other pieces in the auction, so will probably be bidding no matter what. Two OG III and two OPW II. With research. Total of my bid so far is about $600.00, a good price when research and translation is included.

But do I want to spend $2,100.00 in this time of falling prices? Not to mention that, reading my earlier post, I’m done collecting… Hahahahaha!

The Auction Continued

It’s been over  a week since I emailed about The New York Sale, and days since I resent the email and copied the auction house themselves (SixBid). Nothing. No response. Wanting to drop a couple grand in their auction doesn’t appear to catch their attention.

Medal Buying 101: see what you’re buying before you buy. Though I have confidence that Markov is not flogging a fake group I’m just not willing to buy before seeing more detail. Given the detailed pics on his site I’m surprised by the lack of response; he obviously understands the importance of them when it comes to making a sale.

And the auction has been discussed on one of my favorite boards, with the small consensus being that Markov is probably the Devil. Or at least a close relation.

It’s interesting. On the two collecting boards I frequent people are loath to just come out and say that so-and-so is a shyster. Loath to the point of not doing it. When it does come up it’s rapidly shut down by the old timers, the multi-thousand post members. It’s all very hush-hush; the despised are not spoken of. The most cogent explanation I can find is this thread where Markov’s time sense is indicted. Though others say he’s fine. Mixed reviews to be sure. But mostly just silence broken by snide remarks and innuendo.

I wonder if this lack of open communication about “the community” is common in other hobbies? Probably. Insider gossip and such is rife whereever people gather. The difference here, in my experience, is the amount of money involved, which makes information much more valuable in real life terms. I also suspect the lack of talk about folks has a Soup Nazi side to it. With such a limited supply to be cut off from a dealer could be, well, death for a collector.

Anyway, I’ll give it till after Christmas then send some more emails.

Adventures in Auction Land

I decided to do something I’ve not yet done; bid in one of the big Soviet medal auctions.

There are a number of reasons for my lack of participation in any previous auction. First and foremost are doubts about authenticity. An astounding amount of fraud goes on in this hobby. People hold items for decades, they trade hands numerous times, they’re looked at by many. After all that someone notices that it’s a phony. Too common a story. And having a large auction house, with glossy catalog and high end web site doesn’t, unfortunately, mean the story won’t be repeated. Second is price – there is always a considerable fee added to the final price. And usually only high end items end up making it to one of these auctions. Together that prices them out of my reach. Third is that they’re usually in Europe, adding to cost (shipping), communication hassles with non-English speakers, and doubt about remedies if something goes pear shaped.

About a week ago I noticed that the catalog for The New York Sale XXII had been posted. It is put on by one Dmitry Markov, a well known dealer with a mixed reputation. When I got into Soviet awards at the turn of the century (ever think you’d be saying *that*?), his was one of the first sites I found. His prices tend to be high, and his communications when a direct sale is not involved are usually crappy – late or non-existent, and short to the point of abrupt when they do arrive. His site is spartan, but the pics are excellent. As far as I know he doesn’t post anywhere on medals boards. If he did he’d have it rough on at least one – his name is on the obscenity filter and always appears as “******.” Some apparently hate his guts – even his name is banned!

For me, though, he’s fine, for two reasons. First, whenever money has changed hands he has given impeccable service – pieces exactly as presented, well packed and shipped very quickly. Second, for all the apparent disdain folks have for him the one thing I’ve never heard is that he sells fakes. What I’ve bought (admittedly not much)  have all been authentic. All his pics are detailed enough to evaluate (as far as that goes). So he covers the two most important things IMO about doing business with these things. Sell what you show, and show only what’s authentic.

(Edited Dec 09: Well, I take that back. I found comments on another board that say he has been known to sell fakes.  Though the same commenter says low end stuff should be alright. Hmmmm… ah well. Since this turned out alright no harm no foul. Does give an indication of why some hold him in disdain. And leads into another facet of collecting – not being able to know everything about everyone one deals with. Communication tends to be spartan, with frank views such as shown there few and far between.)

What caught my eye was this group. WWII, complete, researched and relatively modest – no four figure awards in it. The Red Star (RS) and Order of the Great Patriotic War (OPW) are two of my favorite awards visually. The RS is striking in its simplicity, without all the symbolism of some awards but being in itself the most important one of all. A soldier at the ready surrounded by the words “Workers of the World Unite”, over a hammer and sickle, adorn the center. And that’s it. The OPW is the quintessential WWII award, created not in the image of a Tsarist award, and not exclusively for the officer class. The group is researched, but to a quartermaster, so chances are these aren’t combat awards. To some that’s bad – to me it’s good. Amateurs speak of tactics, professionals talk about logistics! And it will, hopefully, keep the price down.

A couple things about the group puzzle me, however, so I sent the following email:

I’m interested in bidding on Lot 2310. A couple of questions:

1) Is the serial number for the first “Order of Patriotic War 2nd Class #9124”, accurate?

2) Is it possible to get pictures of the reverse of the four orders and pp. 3-4 of the order book (listing the awards)?

The serial number makes no sense, unless it’s a replacement for an earlier, suspension OPW. Rather I suspect a typo.

And so far… no response. Sigh…